Saturday, November 11, 2017

Hot Stove Update: Thoughts on Giants Needs, Payroll and Giancarlo Stanton

As the Hot Stove starts to flicker to life, let's take a quick inventory of the Giants offseason needs which are amazingly complex, diverse and difficult to quantify.  They could probably field a team if they do absolutely nothing, but what kind of team would it be?  Actually, there is one position that they don't have a current option with Nick Hundley a free agent and a decline of Tim Federowicz' option making him a minor league FA, backup catcher.  So, in a way, you could reasonably put backup catcher as the one essential hole to fill this offseason, especially since Bochy seems to want to gradually increase Buster Posey's use at 1B.  

Adding to the complexity of the situation is that many fans perceive the Giants biggest need to be a power hitting LF, but that is not necessarily the thoughts of the Giants front office.  In a recent interview, Brian Sabean reiterated the need for improved OF defense, specifically CF, and then somewhat surprisingly added an everyday 3B to the list and mentioned that the Giants have to be "resourceful" in improving the bullpen.

So, let's list them:

1.  Back up Catcher.

2.  Upgrade CF defense

3.  Everyday 3B.

4.  Bullpen.

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Further complicating the Giants offseason is the Competitive Balance Tax(CBT).  This one is a challenge for fans to wrap their heads around not only because of the arcane way it is calclulated but because there are now multiple levels or thresholds for CBT penalties which now include more than just money.  Fortunately the website Cot's Baseball Contracts, linked to the left, provides something called a Tax Tracker in a separate spreadsheet from payroll, which is not the same number.  According to the updated Tax Tracker, the Giants are just $9.5 M under the first CBT threshold after adding in estimated salaries for arbitration eligible players and salaries for the remaining 40 man roster.  If you go by MLBTR's Arbitration Salary estimates, you can add another $1.5 M to that number giving them $11 M to spend this winter before they hit the first threshold.

Since the Giants have gone over the threshold the past 3 seasons, the penalty for going over in 2018 is a 50% penalty for every excess dollar. There are two more thresholds:  A surcharge kicks in if the threshold is exceeded by more than $20 M and non-monetary penalties such as devaluation of draft picks and loss of International bonus pool money kick in at $40 M over the limit.

It is difficult to interpret what the Giants stance is on the CBT.  On the one hand, they keep listing multiple offseason needs.  On the other hand they express concerns about exceeding the CBT threshold.  Those two concerns seem close to being mutually exclusive as $11 M might get you a barely league average player in free agency, if you are very lucky.  Bobby Evans has expressed a preference for acquiring needed players by trade, but even players coming in trades will have salaries that get added to the payroll.  Players earning league minimum salaries are seldom available in trade and would come at high prices in prospects, probably higher than the Giants have available even if they wanted to pay the price. 

Larry Baer has expressed concern about the non-monetary CBT penalties.  Most of those kick in at $40 M over the first threshold, so maybe the management group has clearance from ownership to add as much as $30 M in AAV salary this offseason?  That would enable them to acquire 2-3 players in the $10 M range or, here we go, acquire a Giancarlo Stanton without shedding payroll.  It's a tangled web the Giants have woven here.  Cutting through it to make the upgrades they need and want will be a challenge.

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MLBTR reports that the Marlins have discussed a Giancarlo Stanton trade with 4 teams, the Cardinals, Red Sox, Giants and Phillies.  It's hard to reconcile the Giants reported interest in acquiring Giancarlo with their stated goals and CBT limitations, but the rumors continue to persist.  I would note that while the Giants vehemently denied the accuracy of a recent Jason Heyward rumor, there have been no such denials around the Stanton rumors.

The Cardinals would seem to have the best combination of CBT space and tradable assets to acquire Stanton.  The Red Sox have never worried much about the CBT and Dave Dombrowski likely does not care about the non-monetary penalties, so the Red Sox rumors have legs.  The Phillies have an intriguing combination of low current payroll and an up-and-coming team of young players which might interest Stanton who has full veto power over any trade.  Stanton is believed to prefer a coastal team which may complicate the Cardinals pursuit.  He's from California, so the Giants may have a leg up on his preference list. Perhaps the Giants could ask the Marlins to take on the short term salaries of Denard Span and Hunter Pence to offset the first year of Stanton's salary, but it's unlikely the Marlins would accept that.  BTW, Stanton's AAV which is the number that would count as CBT salary, is $25 M.

While I would not want to see the Giants incur draft pick and international bonus penalties to acquire Stanton, I would be otherwise fine with adding him.  It's not my money and the Giants are widely believed to have plenty of it. Whether Stanton is enough of a difference maker that the Giants could add just him and go with internal options everywhere else?  Probably, but they would be boxed in for at least the next 3-4 seasons until the Posey/Crawford/Belt/Cueto/Samardzija contracts are up.  They also have to think about what they are going to do with Madison Bumgarner whose contract will have to be extended and will be quite costly if they want to keep him beyond 2019.

In summary, I would still rate a Stanton trade as unlikely.

12 comments:

  1. Sabean mentioned that they are not rebuilding. They are not trading Madbum or Posey but they will have to consider making moves that they normally wouldn't make. He said they might not be able to fill all their needs in 1 off season. Thanks trying to make some sense of all of this. Maybe it's just me but I was surprised they picked up Moore's option considering their payroll situation. I think that doing nothing is not an option. He also said ownership expects them to compete yearly. Look at all the coaching changes they made. I would say that this off season promises to be unpredictable and interesting. Agree about the Stanton trade being unlikely.

    LG

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  2. Why would Miami trade Stanton?

    1. Shed long term huuuuge contract ($295,000,000 through 2028 buyout)
    2. Get prospects that will develop in 2-3 years to coincide with Nationals' natural decline.

    Why would anyone want that contract? It's kinda crazy, isn't it?

    The first 5 years are "reasonable" if he continues to perform. It may be a bargain. $135 million. Then there's another 5 years (plus the buyout) for $160 million atarting at age 33.
    If he's Barry Bonds reincarnate, he'll have his best years after that, and be a bargain in those inflated (probably) years.

    Talk about rolling the dice!

    The franchise!

    Stanton has played 8 years beginning at age 20.
    TWO years he was in more than 150 games (including 2010 combined AA & ML).
    TWO additional years more than 145 games.

    What if it costs Arroyo and Slater and another promising prospect, maybe a pitcher? Too much? Why not get Dee Gordon, too, maybe throw in Panik and have a lead off batter.
    Miami could do an "NBA" trade, take some expiring contracts: Pence and Span. They are serviceable for another year, then they're gone. It's like sending $30 million along with Stanton.
    They save another $5 million plus on Gordon in 2018, evens it out for 2018, and they shed $29 million for the last 2 years plus his buyout.

    Would anyone make that trade?

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    1. When Harper and Machado sign as free agents, Stanton’s contract will look reasonable. Marlins extended him to save money.

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    2. He can opt-out at 30. That's just two years. Unless he falls apart and decides to not opt-out, in which case you're paying a lot of money for suspect performance. He's also missed a lot of games. ONly three of those eight years were complete seasons while he missed significant time in all the rest:

      100 games
      150 games
      123 games
      116 games
      145 games
      74 games
      119 games
      159 games

      So, I wouldn't give that much. He's an expensive two-year rental in my book. And I don't see the Giants, despite what Evans and Sabean say, contending in the next two years, especially if they give three top prospects.

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    3. Stanton's first ML year, 2010 @ 20 yo, he played 53 games @ AA before being called up (636 PA total).
      That doesn't diminish what you said much: he's only played half of the last 8 seasons as a full-time player.
      The two years before that, @ 18 & 19, he played 125 and 129 games @ A, A+. and AA.
      He's still young but only has 4 of 10 years playing 130 or more games.
      It's would be a major roll of the dice but if they pick up Gordon, too, they'll score an additional 1+ runs a game taking them from <4 to 5!
      Since Miami apparently wants starting pitching more than hitting, they might take Cueto or Shark and fewer top prospects, either less $$ than Stanton even in the short run, a LOT less $$ in the long run.
      Isn't it really a matter of whether the Giants want to bet the farm?
      Or anyone else!

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  3. C: A. J. Ellis wouldn't be a terrible option if Hundley signs elsewhere. Might be better defensively, but worse offensively. $2M?
    Looking for everyday 3B? Where does that leave Arroyo? He's 23 with nothing to prove in Sacramento. Sandoval: over/under 230 pounds?

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  4. Giants looking into Jackie Bradley Jr. I’d love that deal, but he’ll be expensive for someone who is probably more high floor than high ceiling.

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  5. NBC:

    "There's going to be some painful decisions," Executive Vice President Brian Sabean said Friday on the "TK Show. "I guess the best way to say it is we've come to the realization, to do what we need to do, to be competitive to start the year and hopefully have to also roll into making some moves at the deadline, is that we're going to have to make some tough choices and may have to move some payroll, which means moving some people who perhaps we wouldn't under a normal circumstance."


    I wonder who.

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    1. Maybe Sabes is thinking it's time for a reprise of the Matt Williams trade? I would think Joe Panik and Brandon Belt are the two most likely to go in trades.

      I think it was Jon Heyman who drew up a 3-way trade with the Cubs, Giants and Marlins where the Cubs get Cueto, the Giants get Stanton and the Marlins get Ben Zobrist and Ian Happ. I've forgotten which prospect(s) the Giants send to the Marlins, maybe Arroyos, but hey! If the Cubs want Cueto bad enough to give up Ian Happ if someone will take Zobrist's contract off their hands, why not just make it a 2-way trade of Cueto for Happ and Zobrist? Happ can play CF and Zobrist can be the 3B bridge until Arroyo is ready.

      Here's another thought: Bumgarner would bring, by far, the most back in a trade. Giants are looking at having to extend his contract if they want to keep him past 2019. The Giants experience with big, longterm contracts for pitchers with lots of mileage on their arms has been uniformly bad. Could they be thinking of getting a haul for Bumgarner while they can? They have a history of getting rid of players who PO them for whatever reason and they might be PO'd at Bummy for that dirt bike accident.

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  6. Creative is the word that popped up a lot in the Giants season-ending presser. So I don't see how they will go over the DBT unless they pick up an elite player, like a Stanton, somehow, given their lack of farm system Top 100 BA prospects. But, as you noted, only $11M to spend to get to that penalty, plus, as you noted, another backup catcher, much like Hundley, who cost us $2M last season. Leaving, at most, $9M for getting that CF and 3B, plus reliever.

    So I agree, a Matt Williams type of creative move is what to expect. Belt is more in that mode, Panik not so much, but mainly because 1) he's valuable and 2) we have Arroyo getting nearly ready, and so Tomlinson or a cheap MLB veteran 2B can hold the spot until Christian is ready. Cueto and Samardzija are also in that mode, and Melancon to some extent, but with him coming off surgery and a poor season, I don't really see him being traded. I don't see Bumgarner getting traded unless another team made an offer we can't refuse.

    Creative could also mean a platoon in CF, using cheap free agents, since they seem to think Duggar is close. Maybe a Dyson could fill that defensive hole against RHP, with Williamson fighting Slater for against LHP. That also might happen at 3B as well, with Sandoval being OK against RHP, they only got .568 OPS from 3B in 2017, and Sandoval hit .704 OPS against RHP. Tomlinson, for example, has .771 OPS against LHP in his short MLB career so far, so he could be the other platoon there, until Arroyo is ready. And the bullpen, they kind of already said that internally they have a number of guys, so we don't know what they necessarily will do there, it don't have to be an expensive free agent, it could mean picking up fringe guys looking to stay in the majors, basically the next Casilla, or guys due arbitration who are released because they would get more money than the team wants to pay, like we did with Cruz.

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  7. While I agree that the Giants have a history of getting rid of people who PO them for whatever reasons (Shooter, Baker, Kent, Aurilia, Frandsen, Schierholtz, Wilson, Sandoval), there is a difference between Bumgarner and the others: he apologized profusely and beat himself up publicly. Kent still denies that he hurt himself on a bike, and, to my knowledge, never apologized for all the crap he said about Giants fans, other than to say it was no big deal, which made me madder.

    But yes, he would bring quite a crop of prospects if they were to trade him, and that would be a quick way to rebuild. However, I just don't see it happening, the Giants tend to keep players too long, rather than cut them short, while they were still OK. In addition, he is a very celebrated player, still very good, still young, Williams was already 31 YO when he was traded, which most people acknowledge as being past most players' physical and performing peak. Lastly, the Giants want to win via pitching, and getting rid of your ace would be a huge blow to that effort.

    They appear to be in a tweaking mode, not a blow it up mode, and trading Bumgarner is closer to the latter than the former. Belt and Panik trades would be tweaks because we have Shaw and Arroyo nearly ready to take their places. I don't know how real the rumor on Cueto is, that could have been wishful thinking on the part of the Cubs, as a leaked rumor. Or the Samardzija and Melancon rumored trade, again to the Cubs (as nicely as Samardzija has been, his poor ERA in 2017 could be replaced by a Chatwood signing, and we already have a replacement in Dyson). We have no ready replacement for Cueto, let alone Bumgarner. If the Giants expect to compete in 2018, they can't expect to do that after trading away one of their co-aces.

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    1. What do you think Brian Sabean meant when he said the Giants may need to do some things they would have considered unthinkable in the past?

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